Asian Hierarchy!?

[misubi]

Ok.

There seems to be an unstated Asian hierarchy amongst nationalities. For example, this is especially evident with Chinese people's reverence with Japanese culture, and a
inferiority complex to boot. Likewise Chinese people's snobbish view of all other southeast asian peoples. But it seems to permeate across asian nationalities.

What's going on here? Why is there this pecking order and what caused it? Was it the war? Confusciounism? Racism? Discuss.


misubi

[45rpm]

Money, brains and jealousy.

I could draw a little hierachy from a HK person's perspective but it would probably offend - it's not my opinion but my mother can be mostly snobbish at times. But I dont' think the hierachy is caused by racism, but rather culture and socio-economic circumstances.

I will say something that I do know:
- HK people are most likely to think highly of Taiwanese because of the connection of their political situation with China.

- people who were early migrators to the US, the UK, Australia are often thought of as "superior" because they had money to get there. I would say migration from the 50s - late 70s (think Joy Luck Club).

- everyone seems to love the Japanese because of the high-tech developments. For spme people, it is probably the way they hold their head up high and refuse to assimilate with anyone else (and it has been documented in foodie circles that it is why Japanese cuisine is so prized as compared with chinese food - when people migrated and introduced the food to their new country, the japanese kept their cuisine exclusive while the chinese offered inexpensive food)

- chinese people might think south east asian people are lazy, I think this comes from different cultures and different climate (since it is that much hotter and humid there)

- where a country is of a lower GNP and GDP which basically falls into the classifictation of a developing country, people are going to think lower of those countries. Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong, are probably the countries (well HK as the colony of UK) which had the highest development - they were not classified as "developoing" as compared to other asian countries. Communist countries not counted (as they are 2nd world countries). Korea being put in debt because of the Korean war. Other countries due to war (Vietnam) and colonisation. Colonisation playing a major part because of the building of infrastructure. Also before colonisation, different countries were at different stages of civilisation (as in, levels of infrastructure), and some countries were more developed then others, hence being able to be at a higher competitive advantage when it came to buisness and trade. That brings $. Also people's level of education will increase. Did you know that it was not until the late 80's when Singapore was actually no longer a country under the "developing" classification? Taiwan and Sth Korea are techinically getting there in increased GNP & GDP but there are environmental concerns


Anyway.. I could probably write a 2000 word essay but I won't.

[S•Sly]

I think that many asians also see the south-asians as uncouth, and primitive. I often hear people refer to the south-asians as 'dirty' too because of their dark skin colour and lips.

Like 45rpm said, I think the wealth of the country has to do with it too. We see HK and Japan as 1st World countries/(city?) that are socially and economically developed. While on the other hand when some asians think of south-asia they imagine stick wielding people who live in huts and eat dog.

South-asians that are here in canada seem to be usually involved in crime or gangs or are usually scamming for money with little family morals to keep them from straying into the greedy/seedy side of life.

I think up here in canada we see HK, Taiwanese, Japanese, and Korean people to be the more 'civilized'(?) people and are on the top rings of the hierarchy. I'm sure most of this is politically incorrect, but I'm just saying what people are thinking.

[ironmonkey]

like ssly said, lots of people see south asians as ghetto. like cambodians, and filipinos, and laos and all them. third world country up the ass! it seems japan is like the role model for all of asia, and what like our countries should strive for.

im down with all asians(and races for that matter), UNLESS you are rich, if you are imma have to steal from you haha.

respect to ALL robots! and all MONKEY robots too. especially IRON made, MONKEY robots.

[amboy]

but i guess these prejudces are a part of reality. i notice that japanese are comfortable with their high status in the world... and indians have always been comfortable with class and status due to the caste system...but other nationalities like koreans or taiwanese or chinese...ugh...they are so nouveau riche and uncomfortable with their new up and coming status in the eyes of the west...at least filipinos know were ghetto to some extent...except for some of the really well off filipinos and filipino-americans. what is impressive are asians who grow up here or elsewhere in the west, be they 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation, and still retain their 'asianness' and also incorporate their western upbringing without being completely assimilated. these people truly know that the earth is round. there! i said it...this could be an interesting thread, letting asians and others let there true observations (and prejudices) out.

btw, filipinos, cambodians, laotians, and thai, vietnamese, indonesians, and malays for that matter, or NOT SOUTH ASIANS. people of these nationalities are usually referred to academically as SOUTHEAST ASIAN, due to varying degrees of influence from the malay people. people from the islands of asia (except for japanese and those of chinese ethnicity) are also referred to as PACIFIC ISLANDERS. SOUTH ASIANS are those from pakistan, bangladesh, or india.

[S•Sly]

Oops...Ya, actually I noticed after I put up the post that I forgot the 'east'. Thanks for pointing that out.

[SLM]

Originally posted by misubi
There seems to be an unstated Asian hierarchy amongst nationalities.
[snip]
What's going on here? Why is there this pecking order and what caused it? Was it the war? Confusciounism? Racism? Discuss.

You're looking at things from a very narrow world view. It's a cultural thing and it's global.

For example, the English tend to hold the Irish in very low esteem. Ever seen examples of those "No Dogs or Irish Allowed" signs?

And then there's the Germans and their complex hierarchy of races. They held the belief that people of Northern European/Germanic ancestory were superior and all others (such as the Jewish or Slavic peoples) were subhuman or "mud races."

The examples are endless...

[45rpm]

Originally posted by amboy
...but other nationalities like koreans or taiwanese or chinese...ugh...they are so nouveau riche and uncomfortable with their new up and coming status in the eyes of the west...what is impressive are asians who grow up here or elsewhere in the west, be they 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation, and still retain their 'asianness' and also incorporate their western upbringing without being completely assimilated. these people truly know that the earth is round. there!


I disagree with you about feeling uncomfortable with the new and up coming status. In fact, I think they were rather more uncomfortable with the idea of being poor, and advancing economically and technologically has made them better. When I was in Beijing, you can really see that - some people admired me because I didn't look like I was from there (as in, I am obviously chinese, just not local) and people came to me and asked me if I was from Hong Kong.. In a strange way, it's like they look at peopel from HK and they want to be like that, and they know they are going towards that direction. Also when I last was in HK, I met some people from China, and they just are so happy, just looking at HK and wanting that...... That kind of feeling is totally strange.

I'm worried about the state of things in asia - to be more advanced is to be more global, to be more western. Yes there are still 'asianess' about it all, but it's pretty dismal. I'm really shitted that I can't read much chinese, and as I am pretty bad at languages, I sort of have given up. As a chinese person I feel that to retain 'chinese-ness' should also incorporate the fact that I can read it. I speak it well, just can't read.

What I mean is 'white' people aren't getting any more asian. why do we have to assimilate?!



[Edited by 45rpm on 01-25-2001 at 03:02 AM]

[amboy]

actually, i disagree with you that you would be expected to assimilate if you were to move to japan or korea - assimilation is a strong force in america and very particular to this country. the american version of the melting pot really doesnt have a counterpart anywhere else in the world. korea and japan are very insular cultures that are almost impossible to become a part of...look at koreans in japan who have lived there for generations. even though racially they are the same, the japanese would never let a korean be japanese.

even in france or other european countries you would always be seen as as an american. the drive to assimilation is something that is very american, and it is backed by the government. american naturalization brochures explicitly state that you are no longer chinese or german, or even a hyphenated american, once you take the oath to citizenship.

do you never hang out in groups of all white people? i see that ALL the time... and what about blacks hanging out amongst themselves...again, very common...so why do you have a problem with asians hanging out together? it doesnt always mean that they are being insular...theyre just hanging with their crew.

[amboy]

i used an incorrect word when i said 'uncomfortable'... that is true, chinese are very comfortable with affluence... but nouveau riche still stands...

[45rpm]

I am in no way assimilated. I'm Australian, and over here we do multiculturalism very well, and I think it's getting stronger. We don't have to 'westernise' our cultures here to be accepted by white people. Traditional yum cha is enjoyed by all, we have westerners doing huge tradional chinese new year banquets, and they eat what we eat. They shop at all the Chinese shops (clothes and food). Bascially Asian culture is no longer a novelty - I would say this growth has been over the past 15 - 20 years. It wasn't until I went to the US that I realised that US is very different from Australia (but I won't got into that here). (might I add here that you should all come to Sydney!!!)

There is nothing wrong with knowing one language, but what annoys me is that I know bits of an another. Somehow I wish I just got the whole thing.... like my pigeon Japanese (enough to get by in Japan). Like my pigeon Mandarin. Just something complete would be pretty cool, you know?

[S•Sly]

Personally, I find that I feel more comfortable around asian people. As I was growing up, most of my best friends were white but we played with all nationalities of kids. Once I got into highschool and was around a greater number of people of different cultures and backgrounds, I noticed that people of the same nationalities tended to act similar to each other. I saw all the multi-cultural cliques from elementary schools slowly drift apart and catagorize themselves by their nationalities. I started to realize that I didn't like how rowdy most of the white guys were. I made lots of new friends (asian and white) in my first year of highschool, but it seemed as I had more in common with the asian kids and it was easier to get along with them. I don't think I'm alienating myself from white people. If my white buddies asked me to go out clubbing with them, I'd gladly go.

Maybe some of you guys might of had a similar experience that explains why you hang out with a mostly asian clique?

[45rpm]

S.sly - definately your experience seems to echo my brother's a lot. When he was growing up up until about 12 years (end of primary school over here) he was probably just as white as all the other kids..... now he mainly hangs out with Chinese kids..

As for me, I'm still somewhere in between, but I still mostly hang out with white people, but my parents raised us up pretty white, even when we were in HK. Mostly when I go out clubbing, arts, theatre, etc - I'm one of few Asians. But at uni, I seem to hang out with more Asians, even if we don't have the same interests. At law school, all the white kids hang out together, and all the non-white kids (mostly asians) hang out together. I try to talk to the white kids, but the kids in my class are pretty much all snobby, they think they are 'cool'. If I see them at a club or something, they come up to me, but in class/ at uni they hardly talk to me.

[amboy]

you are from australia and canada respectively, no? i always thought that they did multiculturism differently in those two countries and maybe a little bit better than in the us, but from what you describe as your personal experience, it sounds pretty much the same... what are the differences between your respective countries and the us in terms of multiculturalism? i know vancouver bc pretty well, but i havent been to australia...

[S•Sly]

Well, although most people in Canada tend to group together according to their nationalities, I feel that they are open to other cultures and are respectful towards other races. Like in highschool for example, there was the italian crew, the latino crew, the black crew (very small here in vancouver, like only 3 or 4 ppl), the chinese crew, and the vietnamese crew. We mostly hung around our own crews, but we always intermingled with the other cliques, and we never ever had any hate towards them or anything like that. We were all friends, but chose to be around others with the same backgrounds because I believe it was more comfortable for us and they had more similarities and interests. My view of the states is that people hung out in their own groups of nationalities, but they felt that they were more superior or 'cooler' than the other races. They would build barriers and not want to associate with the 'chinese' or what not.

[Tuan]

Originally posted by S•Sly
My view of the states is that people hung out in their own groups of nationalities, but they felt that they were more superior or 'cooler' than the other races. They would build barriers and not want to associate with the 'chinese' or what not.

It depends on where you are in the states. I've lived in a poverty manifested "ghetto" neighborhood and have gradually moved through the spectrum to the upper/ middle class surburbia.
From what I've seen people who are struggling to make ends meet,and have no time for cultural enlightenment WILL clique and have a strong cultural bias against everyone else. They'll feel superior cuz they can't imagine themselves walking in the shoes of anybody else. I should know cuz i use to be like that...now i embrace all cultures.

I think the cultural bias is most apparent in foreignors or (with respects to some of my relatives) the "F.O.B"s. I have relatives and friends who fit in this category and when they first arrive to the states they tend to clique to people of their own race. It diminishes their fear of having to accept what other cultures have to offer. Their ignorance, however causes them to develope the myth that their culture is superior.

I finally moved to upper/ middle class suburbia and found out that this is not the case here. People clique here based on social interests and only build an animosity towards another culture if their own ignorant family or ignorant ass friends influence them to. Here i see culture crosses...mixed groups of friends and the occasional effort to appreciate all races. When kids are not forced to capitalize on illegal activities they tend to notice the other fine things in life. Without the tunnel vision they relate to all races and even though bias comes up every once and awhile..theres a general respect for everyone.

Oops...Another thing: Another reason why I see people not getting along together is because people have assumptions. Some people think a culture or ethnic background is inferior to theirs. Most people assume that another group of people won't accept them cuz they believe that other group believes THEY are superior. So most of the time people don't take the effort to "mingle". But if only they put the effort into doing so....they'll be surprised with how many doors open to them and they'll see how much they have in common.

[Edited by Tuan on 01-26-2001 at 03:59 PM]

[shingun]

Originally posted by yellahbastard
I'm saying, if you claim you are a superior asian, then you are using the same standards whites (and all bigots) use to claim superiority:

umm...so you're saying all "whites" are bigots?

[S•Sly]

Originally posted by Tuan

I think the cultural bias is most apparent in foreignors or (with respects to some of my relatives) the "F.O.B"s. I have relatives and friends who fit in this category and when they first arrive to the states they tend to clique to people of their own race. It diminishes their fear of having to accept what other cultures have to offer. Their ignorance, however causes them to develope the myth that their culture is superior.

I think it's a little different with FOB's. They're people who are new to north america and they don't know the language or the culture here so they stick together to create their own comfortable little community. I'm not sure if it's because they think they are superior. I think it's tough for anyone to come to a new country and try to start a new life from scratch, but at the same time I wish that they would try harder to learn english, and to mingle with people of other cultures. It's like that ESL kid in your english class that always gets yelled at or that could never understand anything, you feel sorry for him, but then you see him hang out at lunch time with the other FOB kids speaking cantonese and not even caring to learn english. Usually the HK kids here are so damn well off that they don't need school or education to get money. And also, we have a very large HK population and community here so it isn't too difficult to find work where you just have to speak cantonese.

[Tuan]

Originally posted by S•Sly

I think it's a little different with FOB's. They're people who are new to north america and they don't know the language or the culture here so they stick together to create their own comfortable little community. I'm not sure if it's because they think they are superior. [/B]

You've got a point Sly....I basically have the same sentiments and totally agree with you about the "comfort" issue.
The whole "superior" issue is not apparent in ALL foreignors but what i've noticed is...the more people remain ignorant...the tighter they hold on to their false beliefs. People like that don't see things from anyone elses perspective so they percieve themselves as right. That's the false feeling of superiority that developes in a large percentage of people. Not everyone...but based on my experiences and encounters it's alot of people.
There's also a handful of those "fobs" who break out of that mold, see things from different perspectives, and push beyond ignorance to embrace all cultures as equal. I should know...cuz i was once that "fob" =)

[SLM]

Originally posted by S•Sly I think it's a little different with FOB's. They're people who are new to north america and they don't know the language or the culture here so they stick together to create their own comfortable little community.[/B]

This applies to all new immigrant groups, not just Asians. Look at the first wave of Irish and the Italian immigrants when they first arrived--they also settled into their own enclaves before becoming assimilated into American culture.

[Tuan]

Originally posted by archonemis


Not everyone is like me. Not everyone has a naive dream of being friends with everyone else, but I do. I live that dream every moment of every day. I know it sounds incredibly cheesy, but I can't put it any other way with out it sounding clinical and sterile.

[Edited by archonemis on 01-29-2001 at 02:44 PM]

I'm with you man....I have that "naive" dream too. Thanks to that dream your kids and my kids are gonna live in a better world. Growing up..my biggest influences were my parents and family. How I chose or decided to overlook their bias...I don't remember but all i know is one day my child will know better. Hopefully from the influences of people like you....he or she will learn to open, accept, and respect.

[amboy]

it is naive... that dream of freeform and 'fun' multiculturalism exists only when you have a lot of ignorance involved. there are differences, and with so many differences in the world to choose from, its no wonder that people eventually find their way to people who share similar life experiences. im not saying that we must all be separatists and that we cant all be friends. but nationalism is surfacing in many people around the world in many strange forms, even as the worlds nations are dying as capitalism and corporations take more control over the direction of the world population, and it is best to understand this because this is all a part of multiculturalism as well.

the fact remains that western culture is the dominating cultural force in the world today, specifically anglo-saxon culture, and even more specifically, anglo-american/us culture. if you are not native to this culture, you have to learn about it, in addition to and even (sadly) at the expense of your own culture. its not as simple as picking and choosing what you want to keep about your ethnic heritage and what you want to throw out. hybridity is involuntary and organic and cannot be constructed self-consciously. this is the world power structure. its not fashionable to talk about this in the present design-style-technology obsessed climate, but the power structure does exist. if you are outside of it, you do, whether you are conscious of it or not, succumb to it and you do lose some of yourself to it, be it your language, your family, or your sense of who you are. but you also gain perspective, and can be incredibly enlightened if you want to be and think about your special situation. but if you are born already inside of it, well, the way you interpret the world, and the way the world interprets the world are pretty much one and the same.

i believe that things are changing, and that things are getting better. but this isnt simple kid stuff. i think we all need to grow up and face complexity and really think about our positions in all of this.

[misubi]

As the original thread starter I think it's time for me to way in here.

Some might say that the "Asian Hierarchy" that seems to exist is only an instance of a more wide ranging problem of racism across all races and groups. I admit that there's a certain truth to that argument, but I believe that Asians in particular have this need to divide oneself along racial lines and rank oneself accordingly.

For example, I'm not sure if this is just my experience of what, but I can't begin to count the number of people who I know who claim to be Chinese eventhough they were born and raised in Vietnam! They claim that "oy yeah...my last name is tran, i was born in Vietnam and i speak it, but I'm still Chinese." My Ass..Sounds like some denial going on there.. When was the last time you heard a person from China claim to be Vietnamese?

But back to the point...Asians love to construct hierarchies based on looks, wealth, nationality whatever. The whole asian staredown thing when going to restaurants is syptomatic of this. I think it has to do with the whole Confucious teachings which told that everyone should know their role and place in society. 2000 years later, the Japanese, Koreans, and Chinese are the upper class and the Vietnamese, Phillipinos, and all the SE Asians are the lowers...


Misubi

[SLM]

> Some might say that the "Asian Hierarchy" that seems to
> exist is only an instance of a more wide ranging problem of
> racism across all races and groups. I admit that there's a
> certain truth to that argument

No, it's an absolute truth.

> but I believe that Asians in particular have this need to
> divide oneself along racial lines and rank oneself
> accordingly.

As stated before, this "need to divide" is not exclusive to Asians, and it's certainly not a need. It's a basic human behavior.

> For example, I'm not sure if this is just my experience of
> what, but I can't begin to count the number of people who I
> know who claim to be Chinese even though they were born and
> raised in Vietnam! They claim that "oy yeah...my last name
> is tran, i was born in Vietnam and i speak it, but I'm
> still Chinese." My Ass..Sounds like some denial going on
> there.

In this particular instance you're confusing ethnic identity with national identity. Ethicity and nationality are not the same. The Vietnamese people identifying as Chinese are ethnic Chinese (their ancestors emigrated from China to Vietnam for whatever reason). If you must use "racial" categories and sub-categories then know that the native people of Vietnam are not the same as Chinese. They're Malay. And which "Chinese" are you talking about? We can open another can of worms by examining the different "races" (the various Caucasian ethnicities, the Han, etc.) native to China. They're all Chinese but they're not all ethnic Chinese.

> When was the last time you heard a person from China claim
> to be Vietnamese?

If they are of Vietnamese extract then they will identify with their true ethnicity. Their isn't one "race" living in China--there are many different peoples native to that country.

> But back to the point...Asians love to construct
> hierarchies based on looks, wealth, nationality whatever.

Again, it's not limited to Asians. Take a good look at any ethnic group and you will see the same thing. It's a human trait.

[Tuan]

Originally posted by misubi

For example, I'm not sure if this is just my experience of what, but I can't begin to count the number of people who I know who claim to be Chinese eventhough they were born and raised in Vietnam! They claim that "oy yeah...my last name is tran, i was born in Vietnam and i speak it, but I'm still Chinese." My Ass..Sounds like some denial going on there.. When was the last time you heard a person from China claim to be Vietnamese?



Misubi


Hey buddy..I dunno how many history classes you took, I don't want to insult your intelligence. But i hope you know that China manifested Vietnam for over 500 years. Denying CERTAIN Vietnamese people of their ethnicity is like saying "some Taiwanese people have no right to claim they're racially Chinese."
And..."Yes" I DO know chinese people who are from china, were raised in Vietnam who..according to you "claim they're Vietnamese"
Why would someone be "denying" something if they truthfully tell you where they were born and what language they speak???

Last names..

Even if "Tran" is not a chinese name...last names get thrown around in a country that has forever been fucked up with turmoil.
I'm Vietnamese/Chinese. My great grandparents decided to immigrate to Vietnam because they weren't seeing eye to eye with China's government and social conditions at the time. I have uncles and aunts in Vietnam who trace their heritage back for generations and can claim they're full Chinese just to maintain their background FOR their children. Theres entire villages in Vietnam with groups of people who are remnants of China's rule and by remembering that..they give themselves a sense of where they came from and why they're there.
There is no shame in being any race. I'm as proud to be part chinese as I am of being part Vietnamese. Being multiracial there's no asian hierarchy in my mentality cuz both races have positives and certain aspects I'd love to resent. I'm just proud of who I am and more proud that I know what I am.
So if some dewd claim's something you're unsure about....consider the possibilities. =)

[Edited by Tuan on 02-01-2001 at 05:54 PM]

[amboy]

theres lots of full blooded chinese in the philippines with 100% hispanic names.

[SLM]

Originally posted by amboy
theres lots of full blooded chinese in the philippines with 100% hispanic names.

Which should come as no surprise since the Phillipines was a Spanish colony. The US gained the Philippines and Hawaii after defeating the Spaniards in 1899.

[whiteywillpay]

When did the Chinese ever "revere" Japanese culture? It's the other way around.


Originally posted by misubi
Ok.

There seems to be an unstated Asian hierarchy amongst nationalities. For example, this is especially evident with Chinese people's reverence with Japanese culture, and a
inferiority complex to boot. Likewise Chinese people's snobbish view of all other southeast asian peoples. But it seems to permeate across asian nationalities.

What's going on here? Why is there this pecking order and what caused it? Was it the war? Confusciounism? Racism? Discuss.


misubi

[yangnome]

with east Asia, I've always looked at it in the confucian sense... china is the big brother...Japan the next, followed closely by Korea... I hink this explains why there is so much animosity between korea and japan...oh yeah and there was that whole occupation thing...

[whiteywillpay]

japan never entered the sino-political arena...in other words, they were never considered a part of the family.

Originally posted by yangnome
with east Asia, I've always looked at it in the confucian sense... china is the big brother...Japan the next, followed closely by Korea... I hink this explains why there is so much animosity between korea and japan...oh yeah and there was that whole occupation thing...

[archonemis]

I have an extended family and we jump eachother into it. I usually win.

[kyoppolife]

amboy is right.

Originally posted by amboy
the fact remains that western culture is the dominating cultural force in the world today, specifically anglo-saxon culture, and even more specifically, anglo-american/us culture.

i believe that things are changing, and that things are getting better. but this isnt simple kid stuff. i think we all need to grow up and face complexity and really think about our positions in all of this.


On the issue of the West; an interesting article recently in Lingua Franca:
http://www.linguafranca.com/print/0111/cover.html

Paraphrasing some key concepts in the article:
The Western prominence in worldly affairs is only pronounced in recent hundreds of years, a microhistory at best. From the macrohistoric perspective, some historians will tell you that in fact the last thousand years were dominated by Asian (especially Chinese) culture.

In response to everything being Anglo/American, might I remind you that in fact the basis for economics today are actually founded in the philosophy of Martin Luther, a German Protestant theologian. Perhaps a little derangedof a man, but definitely changed Western thought quite a bit.

Adding to that are the inventions of a banking system which is Italian in origin and the Greek concept of democracy. The English were always the last to receive any of this culture...so I find it rather ironic that you would attribute most to the Anglos. Everything has a base; events and undertakings cannot and should not be detached. Today America, a mere 200 years in the making and from a historic point of view, not even stable...A couple Chinese dynasties were merely 300 years old. Tomorrow it might as well be Turkey.

[Edited by Solipsism on 01-16-2002 at 08:03 AM]

[Ricky]

Ever notice koreans stick like a sore thumb in japan, and chinese people kinda blend in.

Originally posted by amboy
actually, i disagree with you that you would be expected to assimilate if you were to move to japan or korea - assimilation is a strong force in america and very particular to this country. the american version of the melting pot really doesnt have a counterpart anywhere else in the world. korea and japan are very insular cultures that are almost impossible to become a part of...look at koreans in japan who have lived there for generations. even though racially they are the same, the japanese would never let a korean be japanese.

even in france or other european countries you would always be seen as as an american. the drive to assimilation is something that is very american, and it is backed by the government. american naturalization brochures explicitly state that you are no longer chinese or german, or even a hyphenated american, once you take the oath to citizenship.

do you never hang out in groups of all white people? i see that ALL the time... and what about blacks hanging out amongst themselves...again, very common...so why do you have a problem with asians hanging out together? it doesnt always mean that they are being insular...theyre just hanging with their crew.

The Korean friend I have in Tokyo, born and raised in Japanese culture, admitted that he didn't see himself necessarily as Korean but Japanese. I understand his assessment, in much the same way that I may be Chinese in ethnicity, but I do not consider myself engendering Chinese or even Confucian modes of thinking; American being what I truly am. Granted I am more respectful and aware of Chinese and Asian cultures, I am still on the periphery.

As for hierarchy, China as a whole never really held Japan (or any nations) in high esteem until recently. Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Jesuit, etc etc... scholars worked above the political systems and had much exchange in terms of ideas for many hundreds of years. As much as Chinese nationals are loathe to admit, a lot of cultural diffusion also came from India and the Middle East.

As an example, radical reformers in the Ching Dynasty courts in the late 19th Century attempted to persuade a decadent Empress Dowager Tze-Hsi that the Meiji reformation (1868-1912) of Japan was the route to go in terms of modernizing China to the world. Empress Dowager Tze-Hsi as some may know was fiercely conservative and wouldn't have any of it. Much funds needed for modern reformation and war (particularly the Opium War) were squandered on her colossal folly that is the Summer Palace in Beijing.

The Japanese nationals today are still afraid of accepting that some of their culture indeed did come from Korea. They have a special branch—the Imperial Household Agency—independent and in some cases above the government, that governs the strict access to the Imperial Tombs. Japanese scholars and other historians have had a tremendously difficult time in getting this organization to allow for inspection of the Tombs. Many Japanese scholars suspect that there was only a mythical concept that their Emperors were an unbroken line and that should the Tombs be revealed, many Chinese and Korean artifacts may be found. [Source: Lingua Franca Vol 10, No. 9 Dec 2000 - Jan 2001, article by Alissa Quart]

[Edited by Solipsism on 01-16-2002 at 08:38 AM]

[Ricky]

We all came from apes, Filty humans!

Originally posted by Ricky
We all came from apes, Filty humans!

Yes apes, but were they from Africa?

[Ryan]

Originally posted by Solipsism
Originally posted by Ricky
We all came from apes, Filty humans!

Yes apes, but were they from Africa?

nah they came from medicom

[djbadmonkey]

Originally posted by ironmonkey
like ssly said, lots of people see south asians as ghetto. like cambodians, and filipinos, and laos and all them. third world country up the ass! it seems japan is like the role model for all of asia, and what like our countries should strive for.

im down with all asians(and races for that matter), UNLESS you are rich, if you are imma have to steal from you haha.

respect to ALL robots! and all MONKEY robots too. especially IRON made, MONKEY robots.

as far as i see it:

well koreans don't look to japan as a role model per se. more as a rival, and we also suffer from a inferiority complex too. annexation threw a big monkey wrench in the works. though i think that economically korea is catching up...

koreans maintain that japan is where reject koreans and savage indig. people mixed to make this ruthless race of short, horny people. my mom used to say that the kimono is really just an adaptation of the korean female pajama. apparently korean immigrants felt so sorry for the "impoverished savages" that they gave em their worst clothes.

koreans don't trust chinese people. but they do respect and honor chinese culture. for obvious and good reasons of course.

south-east asia always gets the short end of the stick in korea. despite the korean affinity for pho. it's probably heavily linked to industrialization, as has been mentioned, as well as skin tones and whatnot.

i'm not an expert or anything, but that's what i've obeserved.

djbm

[ChemGirl]

Originally posted by archonemis
It's true (speaking as a white person), we aren't getting any more asian, but at the same time you have to consider the country you're living in. I'm not saying abandon your heritage, but there is something to be said for blending. When I see a group of first or second generation asian-americans hanging in a homogeneous clique it saddens me. Not because they are denouncing americana, but because it's a kind of self inflicted alienation. As though they're afraid of what other white-folk might think of them, ergo they stay away.

I think it's important to keep your roots, but not at the expense of all else. I see a lot of first generation kids that speak very poor english because at home and at school almost all they speak is chinese. That's not too cool for them because it'll be difficult for them to get a job anywhere that wouldn't be able to accomidate them, thereby limiting their options.

I if moved to Japan or Korea I would be expected to assimilate to one extent or another, but I would keep my Scots heritage, too.

I hear what you are saying. I can fully connect with this thread. However, it's not easy being 'different' in a country like the United States. Self alienation as you put it could also be confortability. I bet if you were in Japan or Korea you would rather be around people who are familiar with your language or can really sympathize with where you are from - your roots.

I can not talk for the Asian American community - I'm not Asian. I'm Samoan/German but New Zealand born and my husband is half English half Korean, we both live in America now. However I did live in Hong Kong when I was much younger and as children all our friends were ex-pats from either New Zealand, the U.K or Australia. We could connect on a 'homesick' level, we could talk 'Kiwi' slang and songs from home. I think that is the case with a lot of 1st/2nd generation Asians and other folks from different ethnicities. When you're far from home you want to be connected with your home in some way, and the easiest way is through people from your home.

You are right, keeping to your roots is important. I can live my life and ignore my culture, but I know someday it's going to come back to me, that's why I hold what little Samoan blood and lanuage I have close to me. I am not the only one to think and do this, I am sure there are a lot of folks, white, brown, yellow or green who believe this too.

In regards to your comment on 1st generation kids not speaking English well. There are some people out there who only speak English, however can't even speak the one and only language they know well. Just the other day I was out shopping and I noticed a Chinese child translating for her mother at the shops. Being bi-lingual or learning to be is an advantage in life, even in employment.

I am not saying your wrong, you have good points. I am merely pointing out my opinions and how I see things through my eyes.

[ChemGirl]

Originally posted by SLM
Originally posted by amboy
theres lots of full blooded chinese in the philippines with 100% hispanic names.

Which should come as no surprise since the Phillipines was a Spanish colony. The US gained the Philippines and Hawaii after defeating the Spaniards in 1899.

I think some people also forget that the Phillipines is a part of Micronesia....so I think that makes them Micronesians....

[Ricky]

this is my observation

Japanese people "we all came from china at one point, thats why we have kanji"

Korean people "we're superior and those filthy chinese and japanese stole our ideas"

Chinese people "they were all chinese at one point"

Taiwanese people "I'm taiwanese not chinese"

*sigh*

Originally posted by Ricky
this is my observation

Japanese people "we all came from china at one point, thats why we have kanji"

Korean people "we're superior and those filthy chinese and japanese stole our ideas"

Chinese people "they were all chinese at one point"

Taiwanese people "I'm taiwanese not chinese"

*sigh*

That about sums up the attitude of the Orientals.

[Sleepy Introvert Ninja]

Originally posted by Solipsism
That about sums up the attitude
of the Orientals.
<font size="3" face="System, Small Fonts" color="#400040">
-ahem.</font>

Originally posted by Sleepy Introvert Ninja
Originally posted by Solipsism
That about sums up the attitude
of the Orientals.
<font size="3" face="System, Small Fonts" color="#400040">
-ahem.</font>



Quoi?

[archonemis]

Originally posted by ChemGirl


I hear what you are saying. I can fully connect with this thread. However, it's not easy being 'different' in a country like the United States. Self alienation as you put it could also be confortability. I bet if you were in Japan or Korea you would rather be around people who are familiar with your language or can really sympathize with where you are from - your roots.

I can not talk for the Asian American community - I'm not Asian. I'm Samoan/German but New Zealand born and my husband is half English half Korean, we both live in America now. However I did live in Hong Kong when I was much younger and as children all our friends were ex-pats from either New Zealand, the U.K or Australia. We could connect on a 'homesick' level, we could talk 'Kiwi' slang and songs from home. I think that is the case with a lot of 1st/2nd generation Asians and other folks from different ethnicities. When you're far from home you want to be connected with your home in some way, and the easiest way is through people from your home.

You are right, keeping to your roots is important. I can live my life and ignore my culture, but I know someday it's going to come back to me, that's why I hold what little Samoan blood and lanuage I have close to me. I am not the only one to think and do this, I am sure there are a lot of folks, white, brown, yellow or green who believe this too.

In regards to your comment on 1st generation kids not speaking English well. There are some people out there who only speak English, however can't even speak the one and only language they know well. Just the other day I was out shopping and I noticed a Chinese child translating for her mother at the shops. Being bi-lingual or learning to be is an advantage in life, even in employment.

I am not saying your wrong, you have good points. I am merely pointing out my opinions and how I see things through my eyes.

I'm not saying that I would 'assimilate' into any other culture easily. I'm not even saying that I'd do it completely. Hell yes, I would hang out with people that look like me.

It's a confusing subject. On one level I wish people wouldn't be so afraid to talk to others. When I see those people from other countries I remember this one girl that didn't want to talk to any Americans untill her english got better so she'd 'talk' with an instructional english tape. I felt really bad for her. Granted she's on the far end of the spectrum, but she's just an exxagerated version of a lot of the other kids I've seen keeping away from the American kids on campus.

I'd hope that I wouldn't be the guy who's always hanging with the other white kids, but it would be tempting. I have no reason to go to another country right now so I can't really put this supposition to work.

Oh yeah, the language thing. I was saying that I've seen 1st and 2nd generation kids that didn't speak english very well at all. Their chinese was pretty good, but I could communicate with them easily. Again, these are the uncommon examples, but they stick out in my mind.

Being bilingual is one thing. Not being able to comunicate with the majority of the people surrounding you is another. My perspective is a little different since I never really learned another language. I want to, but I'm lazy.

[neku74]

Originally posted by Ricky
this is my observation

Japanese people "we all came from china at one point, thats why we have kanji"

Korean people "we're superior and those filthy chinese and japanese stole our ideas"

Chinese people "they were all chinese at one point"

Taiwanese people "I'm taiwanese not chinese"

*sigh*

i only have this one correction:
Korean people "korean girls are the best-looking"
i'm not saying i agree with this, but its what every korean person that i have ever met says. i say "korean girls wear the most makeup and expensive clothes"

[archonemis]

I don't like make up.

[angoraphobia]

most straight guys dont i think....but im not a guy....

well Neku, there's a new Chinese fortune cookie saying, "If she looks good in the morning, marry her."

LOL.

But in all fairness, there are some very pretty Korean girls. The Yuan dynasty Mongolians knew this and imported a bunch of Gaoli girls as concubines. There is at least one account of a Gaoli Korean princess in Chinese history (gunjoo syndrome...)

When it comes to men in no preference order: Korean, Japanese, Chinese are all welcomed.

[Edited by Solipsism on 01-16-2002 at 10:58 AM]

[kid_robotron]

Over here in the UK the government are keen to point out that we're a 'rainbow nation', their words, not mine. On one level I guess that's true, but I think the attitude regarding assimilation is slightly different to the US.

I grew up with a lot of kids whose parents moved away from HK to England. I've never heard the term 'British Asian' used. People are more likely to say 'well I was born here, but my parents are from HK' etc. They were british but not keen to forget their culture and where their roots lay.

For example, compare US and UK hip hop. UK hip hop sounds british whilst you can still hear the west-indian influences whilst US just sounds US.

I'm probably not making any sense cos its not a subject I've ever really considered in detail. People are different, but difference is far more entertaining than all being assimilated into the same culture. It's all good.

Anyway, just my two cents....

[Ricky]

how about this one for koreans, "we make the best fake prada, and gucci better than anyone"

Originally posted by neku74
Originally posted by Ricky
this is my observation

Japanese people "we all came from china at one point, thats why we have kanji"

Korean people "we're superior and those filthy chinese and japanese stole our ideas"

Chinese people "they were all chinese at one point"

Taiwanese people "I'm taiwanese not chinese"

*sigh*

i only have this one correction:
Korean people "korean girls are the best-looking"
i'm not saying i agree with this, but its what every korean person that i have ever met says. i say "korean girls wear the most makeup and expensive clothes"

[kid_robotron]

I've got fake stuff thats works much better than the originals. Ever wonder why coloured G-Shocks came out?

[neku74]

Originally posted by Solipsism
well Neku, there's a new Chinese fortune cookie saying, "If she looks good in the morning, marry her."

LOL.

But in all fairness, there are some very pretty Korean girls. The Yuan dynasty Mongolians knew this and imported a bunch of Gaoli girls as concubines. There is at least one account of a Gaoli Korean princess in Chinese history (gunjoo syndrome...)

When it comes to men in no preference order: Korean, Japanese, Chinese are all welcomed.

[Edited by Solipsism on 01-16-2002 at 10:58 AM]

hahaha. well there are some very pretty girls everywhere. i always hear it from korean men and i perceive the statement as an excuse for koreans to stick to themselves.

ditto on the men's preferences.

men always say that they hate makeup but they always drool over the girls that are wearing it. makeup that is caked on is disgusting. makeup worn subtly can enhance. i always feel sorry for men b/c they can't wear makeup (actually aramis has a makeup line for men if anyone's interested) - if they're ugly there's not much they can do about it.

[neku74]

Originally posted by Ricky
how about this one for koreans, "we make the best fake prada, and gucci better than anyone"



HEY!!!!!!
...don't forget Louis Vuitton!

[Sleepy Introvert Ninja]

Originally posted by kid_robotron

For example, compare US and UK hip hop. UK hip hop sounds british whilst you can still hear the west-indian influences whilst US just sounds US.

<font size="3" face="System, Small Fonts" color="#400040">
Hey there was this really nice
UK hip hop track on a DJ mix show</font>
(you know.. with the good beats and
the nice smoothed out funk samples)
<font size="3" face="System, Small Fonts" color="#400040">
by one of the Herbaliser members
and one of the MC's lines was</font>
"Mix'in the Brooklyn funk/
with da London Soul/ Gotcha
rullin on ya feet like Bob Dole"

<font size="3" face="System, Small Fonts" color="#400040">
Or something like that..
Jeez what am I typing about?</font>

[angoraphobia]

its all true....really....is that bad? if so how does one go about changing peoples opinion? is it important enough to do so?

[Ricky]

My friend, he works for this design company, that goes to chinatown and buys the really big fake LV, Gucci, Dior bags and the cuts ther material and makes custom nike dunks with them. They usually sell em in japan. If you see me walking around in my LV dunks, gimme a holla hahhah

Originally posted by neku74
Originally posted by Ricky
how about this one for koreans, "we make the best fake prada, and gucci better than anyone"



HEY!!!!!!
...don't forget Louis Vuitton!

Originally posted by Ricky
My friend, he works for this design company, that goes to chinatown and buys the really big fake LV, Gucci, Dior bags and the cuts ther material and makes custom nike dunks with them. They usually sell em in japan. If you see me walking around in my LV dunks, gimme a holla hahhah

Originally posted by neku74
Originally posted by Ricky
how about this one for koreans, "we make the best fake prada, and gucci better than anyone"



HEY!!!!!!
...don't forget Louis Vuitton!


Chanel Street

[elevated]

solipsism: is Gaoli "Koryo" in korean ?

Originally posted by elevated
solipsism: is Gaoli "Koryo" in korean ?

Gaoli is a Chinese term. It's always used as a regional placemark and to describe an ethnic minority within Chinese borders, but this may be archaic now. For instance, whenever we refer to ginseng, the highest grade is Gaoli ginseng, because the Chinese consider Korean ginseng high quality. Otherwise, we call Korea "Han Gok," and its people "Han Gok ren."

But yes, I think the terms Gaoli and Koryo are equivalent.

[Edited by Solipsism on 01-16-2002 at 01:02 PM]

[jiggles]

Originally posted by Solipsism

we call Korea "Han Gok," and its people "Han Gok ren."


Isn't that only the case if you're Mandarin? I believe it's a bit different in Cantonese ("Han gok yen"?). I don't know Chinese (being Korean) but it's one of the few bits that I learned while out there (Hong Kong and Taiwan, to be more exact) to prevent the locals from wondering why I didn't understand what they were saying.

As for some of the other points (and I'll try to be brief though it's hard with such a heavy subject):
- There is a perceived hierarchy. This is pretty much common to most cultures/nations. Some of this is based on cultural/technological/economic sophistication and some of it is more racially based. It is, by far, not unique to Asians.

- Related to the above, history also plays a part in one people's attitude towards another. Japan's actions during WW II is a good example of this. In the case where one people are colonized, occupied or invaded by another, there are going to be feelings of inferiority and/or bitterness.

- As for assimilation, I find the US to be a much better place for people of different cultures to live together. Here, people can retain their identity and still be considered Americans. A few years ago, I had considered moving to the UK but did not find the racial situation to my liking. A much higher level of assimilation was expected and with respect to east asians (the term "Asian" there is more commonly applied to Indians and Pakistani), attitudes there now were equivalent to what they were here in the US when I was growing up in the 70's (I just dated myself here, btw).

The higher level of assimilation results in a notion of more inter-racial harmony but this is mainly because the immigrants act just like the locals. In the US, it is a bit different in that people more often retain their culture and instead of changing themselves to the local culture, change the local culture to make them less foreign. Sushi, burritos, etc are considered standard fare here and not some "exotic" and "foreign" food. In addition, the US in general has immigrants from more different countries than other nations (in Europe, I found east asians to be relatively uncommon unless they were from a colony). All this does create a lot of tension and discord but I feel it is a necessary dynamic when you get so many different cultures together.

To the poster who noted how isolated immigrants are when they don't speak the local language very well: most immigrants seem to get by fine with a rudimentary handle on the local language and customs. Things are a bit different when you get out of school. If it concerns you so much, you may want to try taking the initiative and go and talk to them. Being in the role of the "native," you are in a better position to breach the gap.

When it comes down to it, in my opinion, I feel that only focusing on commonalities among different people ignores a large part of the equation. People are different. You just have to embrace the differences instead of immediately using them as a basis for setting yourselves apart from them. It's the differences that make us (the human race, that is) stronger as a whole.

[SLM]

Originally posted by jiggles
Originally posted by Solipsism
we call Korea "Han Gok," and its people "Han Gok ren."


Isn't that only the case if you're Mandarin? I believe it's a bit different in Cantonese ("Han gok yen"?). I don't know Chinese (being Korean) but it's one of the few bits that I learned while out there (Hong Kong and Taiwan, to be more exact) to prevent the locals from wondering why I didn't understand what they were saying.

1. Han = the ethnicity (in this case, Korea)
2. Gok = country
3. Ren/Yen = a person or the people referenced in #1

"Han gok yen" means "korean person" and "han gok" translates into "the country of Korea."

[jiggles]

Originally posted by SLM
1. Han = the ethnicity (in this case, Korea)
2. Gok = country
3. Ren/Yen = a person or the people referenced in #1

"Han gok yen" means "korean person" and "han gok" translates into "the country of Korea." [/B]

I was mainly nitpicking on the ren/yen part. The "han gok" = "Korea" part is pretty easy for Koreans to pick up since it's very close to the Korean term ("han gook").

[SLM]

Originally posted by jiggles
[QUOTE]I was mainly nitpicking on the ren/yen part. The "han gok" = "Korea" part is pretty easy for Koreans to pick up since it's very close to the Korean term ("han gook").

Yes, those dang ol' Mandarin speakers have the "r" sound in their speech. In Cantonese it's pronounced "yen" or "ngen," depending where you're from...

[kamenriderv3]

I like that Cantonese cartoon show "Yen and Stimpy".

[angrykitty]

isn't "yen" japanese?

Originally posted by Den
[QUOTE]How the hell did you link the reformation and Martin Luther to the rise of modern economics? What about Adam Smith or whoever...you know the "Wealth of Nations" Guy...


Economics 101.
PWE. Protestant Work Ethic.
[EXTRACTED]
The Protestant Work Ethic is a phrase coined by Max Weber to explain the economy of Industrial Germany in 1892-1894. East German peasant farmers were dispossesed of their land and replaced with Polish-Russian migrant farmers. Weber's essay The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism proposed that the origins of the capitalist mentality was located in the neo-Calvinist ethic of seventeenth century begun by Martin Luther Protestant movement in Germany. LUTHER: All activities as religious as the next as long as they are carried out with seriousness and hard work.
[END EXTRACTION]

[EXTRACTION]
Martin Luther rebelled against what he saw as the corruption of the Roman Catholic church and its growth into an empire in its own right. He preached against the commercialization of the church and began to change the doctrine, believing that man could stand alone before God. In doing so, he changed the social order and laid the foundations for individualism.
[END EXTRACTION]

Individualism is a key concept in the West's rise to dominance.

That's how. It's the building blocks. After that, you can bring in anyone you want, from John Maynard Keynes's macroeconomics to John von Neuman's game theory.

Originally posted by Den
[QUOTE]Can't be Turkey. They have too small a market. India, EU, China, or Russia.

LOL.
You make me laugh. I presume you are looking at population and land area as an indicator of economic success. Two of the most successful economies, Japan and Great Britain are tiny.

I say Turkey because if you know any history, Turkey was once a major crossroads and still is a major crossroads for much trade and exchange in its region. It is continuosly being eyed for its strategic position by the West. Turkey is on the US government's 10 biggest emerging economies list. Its economic rise in the late 80's early 90's was an amazing feat, only to be mired in economic disaster in the last couple years due to a complete [READ] Russian economic failure and two catastrophic earthquakes. It was once a country with one of the highest OECD growth rates.

[Edited by Solipsism on 01-16-2002 at 10:29 PM]

[angrykitty]

long live the ottoman empire!

[angoraphobia]

i love ottomans....i want one in dark brown leather or moss green velvet...oh wait...different ottomans...

[remotecontrolalligator]

istanbul and constantinopal

[angoraphobia]

istanbul was constantinople now its istanbul not constantinople been a long time gone constantinople why did constantinople get the jerk? thats nobodys business but the TUUUURKKSSSSSSSSS!

[coxon]

Originally posted by jiggles
Originally posted by Solipsism

we call Korea "Han Gok," and its people "Han Gok ren."


Isn't that only the case if you're Mandarin? I believe it's a bit different in Cantonese ("Han gok yen"?). I don't know Chinese (being Korean) but it's one of the few bits that I learned while out there (Hong Kong and Taiwan, to be more exact) to prevent the locals from wondering why I didn't understand what they were saying.



ya...

cantonese you'd say 'han gok yen'...
mandarin.. sounds more like 'han guo ren'

45rpm... agree with ya there..
i'm also in australia... and, i think our multicultural policy is great... (assimilation was the main focus during the 50's-70's)..

even tho i'm chinese (parents from hk)... born & bred in australia.. (prob as aussie as f*ckin paul 'crocodile dundee' hogan).. but i've never referred to myself as an australian... just one of the things i love about this country~~~~ :P

[whiteywillpay]

Does anyone buy this bullshit that they still teach in major universities? The concept of individualism is not something exclusive to western thought - it's just pronounced in profound acts of selfishness that goes back to the agonalism of the greeks, which is opportunistically lauded of individuals such as Leonidas who perform great self-less feats - but is then hushed under the rug for hero/villains such as Pausanius. This is just reverse orientalism - damn occidentals.


Originally posted by Solipsism
Originally posted by Den
[QUOTE]How the hell did you link the reformation and Martin Luther to the rise of modern economics? What about Adam Smith or whoever...you know the "Wealth of Nations" Guy...


Economics 101.
PWE. Protestant Work Ethic.
[EXTRACTED]
The Protestant Work Ethic is a phrase coined by Max Weber to explain the economy of Industrial Germany in 1892-1894. East German peasant farmers were dispossesed of their land and replaced with Polish-Russian migrant farmers. Weber's essay The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism proposed that the origins of the capitalist mentality was located in the neo-Calvinist ethic of seventeenth century begun by Martin Luther Protestant movement in Germany. LUTHER: All activities as religious as the next as long as they are carried out with seriousness and hard work.
[END EXTRACTION]

[EXTRACTION]
Martin Luther rebelled against what he saw as the corruption of the Roman Catholic church and its growth into an empire in its own right. He preached against the commercialization of the church and began to change the doctrine, believing that man could stand alone before God. In doing so, he changed the social order and laid the foundations for individualism.
[END EXTRACTION]

Individualism is a key concept in the West's rise to dominance.

That's how. It's the building blocks. After that, you can bring in anyone you want, from John Maynard Keynes's macroeconomics to John von Neuman's game theory.

[archonemis]

I heard that Greek men liked Greek boys and that it was a rite of passage.

Originally posted by whiteywillpay
Does anyone buy this bullshit that they still teach in major universities? The concept of individualism is not something exclusive to western thought - it's just pronounced in profound acts of selfishness that goes back to the agonalism of the greeks, which is opportunistically lauded of individuals such as Leonidas who perform great self-less feats - but is then hushed under the rug for hero/villains such as Pausanius. This is just reverse orientalism - damn occidentals.

On an individual level, no the application doesn't apply.
But on macrolevel... God this brings up Hegel and Fukuyama and I have neither the energy nor the inclination to enter that arena.

Pulling forth another Lingua Franca article (gee, do I have a subscription or no?) White Men Can't Contextualize, the author writes:
[EXTRACTION]
Can anyone seriously argue nowadays that Asians and Westerners think differently? Yes. His name is Richard Nisbett, and he has some data he'd like to show you.
[END EXTRACTION]

I would provide a link, but unfortunately Lingua Franca hasn't made that article available online. I'd OCR it if anyone's interested.

The article outraged me at first. Stereotypical bullshit I said. The study/research was administered by asking Asians and non-Asian a series of questions. The answers most likely given in these studies by non-Asians tended towards self, while the Asians answered more in social context. I'll post examples if I can find that issue...

Then I went to Tokyo. And then a couple relatives from HK came and lived with us for 4 months. Then I began to think about my previous trips to HK, Shanghai, and Beijing. I had many discussions with my Japanese friends and the relatives related to this topic, and the conclusions they drew (in the general of course) about Western/American society and Asian society were very interesting.

For me, the pointers are the way cultures engage in art. Art as expression for me is the singular most egotistical statement an individual can make against society. Art for art's sake is more like art for self's sake. If the arts in general has risen above no-name craftsmanship mentality to personal delving, I think it becomes quite telling.

I don't see individualism as exclusively Western, but I do see and recognize that the West values it above Asian cultures in general.

[Edited by Solipsism on 01-18-2002 at 02:41 AM]

[ChenZan]

all i know is im tired of "mainland" people thinking their better than us "Jook-Seng", they think they're sooo superior. They live in American but alienate themeselves from the rest, and dont speak anything but Chinese even though they go to American school so they obviously know english.

[nauism]

i think it has mostly to do with economics then anything else.

[Telephone]

Interesting thread, I'm just gonna bump this and come back to it later.

[puppy fields]

I think it's based on how much you can afford on a car and how skinny you are.