occupy wall street

[35ft6]

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-...t-2011-10?op=1

Some propaganda.

[archonemis]

^I actually agree with most of what's being said in that.

[fmstlr]

Originally Posted by 35ft6

Why are you so hostile towards this movement? The people? Their methods? Or you don't think there's a problem with how banks control our government and exploit the people?

this movement is, to me, about the recapturing of privileges lost by those who had it. I'm not talking about Paris Hilton privileges, I'm talking about what's considered as mainstream American Dream stuff, like owning a house, getting a pension, having extra money to enjoy life...

Whatever is consider as a norm, or a right, or basic standard of living, depends strongly on where in the social strata you came from. Before these occupy wall street folks ever materialized, there have been a vast underclass of people living in third world conditions for many many years in America. They work hard, they don't have bank accounts, they don't have health insurance, they don't own any properties, they still don't have any of those things WE considered as baseline. Yet as a society we were not only silent, but we exploit their cheap labor and their lack of political power. Many of these OWS people were part of that apathetic majority. They only start making noise when the injustice hit their own front door. That to me, does not earn my support.

Of course I agree that big money is corrupting the democratic process, but I don't see any positive outcome from a group of people who are, in the name of fighting for true democracy, really fighting to restore their own social standing.

[archonemis]

Originally Posted by fmstlr

this movement is, to me, about the recapturing of privileges lost by those who had it.

None of my college graduate friends have ever owned their own homes or had jobs paying above minimum wage.

I don't think you understand that not everyone is over forty-years-of-age.

[fmstlr]

haven't you noticed that all your arguments began with your friends' experience.

[archonemis]

Yes, I have.

I value real-world examples.

[35ft6]

[kamenriderv3]

what a boehner

[35ft6]

Originally Posted by fmstlr

Whatever is consider as a norm, or a right, or basic standard of living, depends strongly on where in the social strata you came from. Before these occupy wall street folks ever materialized, there have been a vast underclass of people living in third world conditions for many many years in America. They work hard, they don't have bank accounts, they don't have health insurance, they don't own any properties, they still don't have any of those things WE considered as baseline.

Don't you think the people who support Occupy Wall Street are way more inclined to care about the people you are talking about?

Yet as a society we were not only silent, but we exploit their cheap labor and their lack of political power.

If I'm complicit by virtue of being a citizen of the USA, then okay. Poverty and homelessness are problems, I agree.

Many of these OWS people were part of that apathetic majority.

Are you a part of the apathetic majority? Regardless of what they were before, I still support this movement. Not sure what they were, and you're probably right, most of them could have done more before, and maybe they don't give their money to the homeless on their way to the bar to buy a $4 beer, but, then again, we don't always do that either.

They only start making noise when the injustice hit their own front door. That to me, does not earn my support.

Well, according to the right wingers, a lot of them are "trust fund babies" and well to do people. Anyway, the people I know going there, some of are doing "well." I think a lot of people are their out of empathy and not because of experiencing a personal injustice.

I don't really get why any of this matters, and even if it does, why it's the overriding factor. If there was an anti war protest, some of the people there might be parents of fallen soldiers, and maybe they were even pro war before their son got blown to smithereens, but I wouldn't discount them or the whole action because of that. Whatever it took to make people come around, that's fine. We're all human. Some people have to learn the hard way, and that's not only to be expected, but it's the rule rather than the exception.

What really matters now is coming together to try to create change for the better. I make a decent living and, really, there is almost no limit to how much I can earn. It's not out of personal experience really, although my health insurance plan sucks ass, it's just I know people are getting fucking screwed. I don't want to live in a world like that. And even if we never win this one, I don't want to live in a world where everybody is cynical and nobody gives a shit or puts up a fight.

Of course I agree that big money is corrupting the democratic process, but I don't see any positive outcome from a group of people who are, in the name of fighting for true democracy, really fighting to restore their own social standing.

I see nothing wrong with that. Whatever it takes. If you lost your job, maybe you would have more time to dedicate to causes like this, but I wouldn't hold that against you. I agree we need to do more for the very poorest, not just the people trying to raise a family on 35 grand a year. It's like you're upset at these people for not taking action sooner? But they're taking action. It's a start. I think it's a really good thing, and however a protester might have arrived at their ideological position, whether they had to experience it firsthand or they care because they want things to be better for others, it's good either way. I haven't been this proud of American people in a while. Honestly, I thought we had just become a bunch of pussies.

[archonemis]

Originally Posted by fmstlr

fighting to restore their own social standing.

Yeah, those 18 year old kids working at WalMart and their godamn union pensions sucking the life out of this country . . .

[fmstlr]

Originally Posted by 35ft6

Are you a part of the apathetic majority?

It's like you're upset at these people for not taking action sooner? But they're taking action. It's a start. I think it's a really good thing, and however a protester might have arrived at their ideological position, whether they had to experience it firsthand or they care because they want things to be better for others, it's good either way.

I don't know if I am, but I do work in schools, by choice, that serve the poorest children, who live in rat-infested one room apartment, with illiterate parents that face deportation at any moment.

You are right, I have beef with people who protest injustice only when it affects them personally, instead of as a matter of principle. Even if their actions might improve others' well being as well, as a sort of side-effect, not the true intent. They are doing so to protect their own interests, but isn't that the same thing the bankers were doing? Watching out only for their own interest.

As I have stated, injustice have been all around us for decades, yet it remained un-challenged because it only affected those who are truly powerless to fight back and not the people who are now occupying WS.

On the point about propaganda vs. actions, many activists thought that they are gonna have the upper hand in public opinions simply because they were using non-violent tactics. They simply don't understand that Gandhi and ML King were natural experts in PR. Not having a clear message that can articulate the goal and motivate support at the same time, their cause is a waste of time.

[A:42]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...leaders-police

antifa <3

[Iago]

99% didn't give a shit.

[A:42]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6svA6Qvq1U

i have a local bank, but i would consider pulling my money out if i didn't, i guess.

[fmstlr]

mass withdrawal should be the next step, if the breakdown of capitalism is the ultimate goal.